An Interview With the Director Anand Patwardhan
Of the film www.jaibhimcomerade.com
Jai Bhim Comerade
By Tashi Khan
Assistance- Neeley Lara Gail
fabtshi20@hotmail.com
The Interview
Q. Why did you think about making a documentary on this topic?
A. Because the police killed 10 dalits in 1997. They were protesting because of that, on top of that my friend who was a poet and singer committed suicide because of this incident.
Q. So he was your friend?
A. He was somebody I worked with, recorded music, and filmed him many years ago.
I got closer to the community that had been attacked. I ended up filming for fourteen years
That’s a long time!!
Yeah, it is!
Q.Are they still doing the same jobs as before or are they being accepted in society as equals?
A. No, there is some change but by in large many people from India are doing the same kind of jobs.
Q.Really?
A. I mean, no upper class person cleans their toilets or scavenges or things like that. Usually it’s the poorest of the poor. That’s the way it’s been cast by society.
Q. And the cast system is still going on?
A. Yes, the cast system…have you read any marriage ads? The marriage ads in India or even abroad or even here. What does it say? They want to marry people within their own cast, within their own community.
Well I’m from India so…
Yeah?
I’ve been here for twenty four years so I don’t know how much it’s changed.
A. Even here in England when Indians or people from the region get married, arranged marriages, they’re always within their own community.
Q. So the conditions are still the same for Dalits ?
A. For quite a lot and to a large extent, yes
Q. One thing I’ve heard that the lower classed girls and Dalit girls are briefed to take the revenge of some kind, is that true?
A. Revenge no but they are standing against the atrocities, and trying to get equal rights and accepted, there are the raids/rapes on Dalits do happen, yeah. ‘Dalits’ are killed, raped, that happens on a regular basis.
Q. Is it more Dalit girls than the other girls or is it all over the society?
A. More with Dalit, yeah because they are the weakest. It’s always the weakest that are vulnerable.
Q. Yeah I think if you have a bit of time for me after the film?
A. Yes, we’ll try
Q. What’s your opinion on the rapes going on in India now?
A. That’s awful but at least the people spoke against it, at least there was a big protest.
Q. I know but is there change?
A. That big protest is a good sign
Q. Will there be any change in the society?
A. The only change is that people have spoken out, it’s not often that people speak out so that’s a good sign, but more than that we’ll have to see.
Could you tell us about the difficulty of getting certification, there are two stages.
Q. What will you achieve by showing these films abroad?
There are lots of Indians abroad for one thing, like yourself.
I don't make films for one particular person, I make for whoever watches them.
Q. How is it going to change the mentality and the system?
A. Because the world is not that different from each other, people are not different from each other.
Q&A after the film between the director and the audience
Audience Q. Is it a criminal act to be a Marxist in India?
I’m not a Marxist but there is an arm struggle going on in parts of India, so they have basically been suspected of being in contact with Marxist, which is quite absurd, the bay order said that unless the state can show that they have done a crime you can’t put them in jail, the ideology is not enough to put somebody in jail. The act that they are under is UAPA which is the unlawful activities prevention act. So it’s a prevented detention act basically where you are innocent until proven guilty.
Audience Q. you tell us about the difficulties of getting certification for your film with the authorities?
Almost all of my films have had difficulties; there are two stages of difficulty for me. The first is the censor certificate; all films that are made in India, when you want to show them in public then you have to get a central board of film certification certificate, which supposedly is meant to say this is for … this is universal but they also always, in cases of political films like this always ask for cuts. So I’ve had many many battles with all my films to get through that stage, going through various different stages of tribunals and things like that and failing all that I go to court. Once you are out of the censor certificate thing you can still go to court and I’ve always won my cases in court. The surprise with this film is that they didn’t stop this film; they actually gave me a censor certificate without making me go to court at all. So that was a very pleasant surprise. The explanation is that they have been embarrassed in the past that they’ve lost all of their cases, but also that the Dalit voice in the film is so undeniable that they knew if they were to say cut this and cut that it wouldn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Audience Q How widely has it been seen in India and what has the reaction been? I know you’ve had battles in the past with the televisions to have your films screened…
This hasn’t gone through the television testers yet; it’s gone through the censor certificate, the next stage of the battle is with the, getting the film shown. I end up going to court against my national television broadcaster. As you know there are many private channels in India mostly but there is also a government channel called the Doordarshan so I’ve always fought on my institutional right to get my films shown on the government channel because we’ve argued that well, usually I’ve gone to court after I’ve won some kind of national award because some of these films have won national awards. So I can argue that the government gave me an award and so they can’t say that the public can’t see the film. So the same thing happened, so far I’ve won six court cases to get my films shown on TV but this film hasn’t gone to court yet, eventually we might have to go to court again, unless they are very nice and actually show it without my going to court. But that apart, the national TV aspect, but we’ve done lots and lots of screenings, continue to do screenings regularly in the community. So all over Marachta, but especially in the Bombay region we’ve done plenty of screenings in the slum locations and in the areas where the Dalits colonies, sometimes hiring cinemas but often doing open air screenings, with a huge screen and more than 1000 audience at a time. Plus I’ve also shown it in colleges and places where the elite are. I’ve been trying to show it to different kind of audiences.
Audience Q. Looking at the broader issue, whether you think India’s democracy has a capacity to all the casticism to revel all the injustices or whether it is the same biases between politics and caste and those biases all the time?
Out of Hinduism, oppressed them for centuries, became a Buddhist, in 1956, that was the largest conversion from one religion to another on a single day, hundreds of thousands of people converted. Since that time till now Dr Ambedkar’s popularity has grown in India, especially within his community. His images, his icons are everywhere to be seen and the Dalit community to some extent. What a Dalit community means, untouchables there are many words.
Statue of Dr Ambedakar >>
many ways and many languages in India which describe untouchability as pejorative term. Mark Majari again tried to change this in his own fight against untouchability and gave them the name Harijans which means children of God but as the community became politically conscious they rejected this term as patronising because as you said if we are the children of God then who are you? So they call themselves Dalits which literally means the oppressed and as the Dalits community has become somewhat more empowered than before what has happened is that the rage against them has also increased because there are people upper caste who do not want to see this change happen. Atrocities against Dalits are a very common feature in India. Perhaps you could argue that these atrocities have increased as the Dalits community becomes more vocal and fights for their rights. So to come to 1997 where this film began, in 1997 in a slum in the city of Bombay, somebody in the middle of the night put a garland of footwear on Dr Ambedakar's statue in the community where the dalits lived. When people came out in protest against this, they came out in the street; the police arrived within minutes and shot in, without any warning. They fired into the demonstrators and the colonies where people lived and killed ten people on the spot, one other person died a few days later from his bullet injuries. Four days after this event, a poet and singer whom I had worked with in the past, because I had made a film on the slums of Bombay and … sang the song that runs through that film, it’s called Bombay our City. Benas who lived near this colony visited this colony after the firing had happened and he got so depressed by what he saw that he committed suicide. He hung himself in his own hut. This is where the film begins, because I then wanted to understand why this happened. That journey took me 14 years; the film has been going on from 1997 till 2011. You will see it explores many different strands; one is that I had recorded a lot of Benas’s music on tape, although I only had one song of him actually singing. I then started recording the music of other musicians of the community. I looked at caste and past…. From the Dalits community, he had also become a… the film looks at tensions between caste and past because one of the things you’ll see as the film goes along Benas when he died even though he was a Marxist he reasserted his Dalip identity rather than his Marxist identity. He died with a blue scarf on his head rather than a red scarf as you would expect. And I also looked at court cases against the police, and the police put counter cases against the people that they had fired first because they always do that did the shooting in self-defence. So these two sets of court cases are one of the reasons why the film took so long to complete.
After the Film Q&A with the director
ByTashi khan
Q- Can you tell us about getting certification?
Dir-yes I have always had problems with all my films but surprisingly this film didn't have that problem, because maybe they were embarrassed as I have always won my case, surprisingly I got the censor certificate without any struggle, which was a pleasant surprise. They couldn't cut this and that as the Dalits voice is deniable.
Q. I guess what I was wondering if you have had any battle with the television to show it to viewers.
Dir- Aah! yes, this hasn't got the TV test certificate and that's my next battle tht stage is to show on the Television, we have private channels but I have always argued to show my films on the national TV. Without struggle otherwise I to go to the court, I have always won my cases and I have to show my fernment channel Doordarshan which is equivalent to BBC here.
My Last Question
Q. Also I wanted to find out how is it going to change people in India by showing the film in the west?
A. When we have people like you to convey the message, I have nothing to worry about and the future is bright.
Tashi -Thanks!
Q. What’s your opinion on the rapes going on in India now?
A. That’s awful but at least the people spoke against it, at least there was a big protest.
Q. I know but is there change?
A. That big protest is a good sign
Q. Will there be any change in the society?
A. The only change is that people have spoken out, it’s not often that people speak out so that’s a good sign, but more than that we’ll have to see.
Could you tell us about the difficulty of getting certification, there are two stages.
Q. What will you achieve by showing these films abroad?
There are lots of Indians abroad for one thing, like yourself.
I don't make films for one particular person, I make for whoever watches them.
Q. How is it going to change the mentality and the system?
A. Because the world is not that different from each other, people are not different from each other.
Q&A after the film between the director and the audience
Audience Q. Is it a criminal act to be a Marxist in India?
I’m not a Marxist but there is an arm struggle going on in parts of India, so they have basically been suspected of being in contact with Marxist, which is quite absurd, the bay order said that unless the state can show that they have done a crime you can’t put them in jail, the ideology is not enough to put somebody in jail. The act that they are under is UAPA which is the unlawful activities prevention act. So it’s a prevented detention act basically where you are innocent until proven guilty.
Audience Q. you tell us about the difficulties of getting certification for your film with the authorities?
Almost all of my films have had difficulties; there are two stages of difficulty for me. The first is the censor certificate; all films that are made in India, when you want to show them in public then you have to get a central board of film certification certificate, which supposedly is meant to say this is for … this is universal but they also always, in cases of political films like this always ask for cuts. So I’ve had many many battles with all my films to get through that stage, going through various different stages of tribunals and things like that and failing all that I go to court. Once you are out of the censor certificate thing you can still go to court and I’ve always won my cases in court. The surprise with this film is that they didn’t stop this film; they actually gave me a censor certificate without making me go to court at all. So that was a very pleasant surprise. The explanation is that they have been embarrassed in the past that they’ve lost all of their cases, but also that the Dalit voice in the film is so undeniable that they knew if they were to say cut this and cut that it wouldn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Audience Q How widely has it been seen in India and what has the reaction been? I know you’ve had battles in the past with the televisions to have your films screened…
This hasn’t gone through the television testers yet; it’s gone through the censor certificate, the next stage of the battle is with the, getting the film shown. I end up going to court against my national television broadcaster. As you know there are many private channels in India mostly but there is also a government channel called the Doordarshan so I’ve always fought on my institutional right to get my films shown on the government channel because we’ve argued that well, usually I’ve gone to court after I’ve won some kind of national award because some of these films have won national awards. So I can argue that the government gave me an award and so they can’t say that the public can’t see the film. So the same thing happened, so far I’ve won six court cases to get my films shown on TV but this film hasn’t gone to court yet, eventually we might have to go to court again, unless they are very nice and actually show it without my going to court. But that apart, the national TV aspect, but we’ve done lots and lots of screenings, continue to do screenings regularly in the community. So all over Marachta, but especially in the Bombay region we’ve done plenty of screenings in the slum locations and in the areas where the Dalits colonies, sometimes hiring cinemas but often doing open air screenings, with a huge screen and more than 1000 audience at a time. Plus I’ve also shown it in colleges and places where the elite are. I’ve been trying to show it to different kind of audiences.
Audience Q. Looking at the broader issue, whether you think India’s democracy has a capacity to all the casticism to revel all the injustices or whether it is the same biases between politics and caste and those biases all the time?
Out of Hinduism, oppressed them for centuries, became a Buddhist, in 1956, that was the largest conversion from one religion to another on a single day, hundreds of thousands of people converted. Since that time till now Dr Ambedkar’s popularity has grown in India, especially within his community. His images, his icons are everywhere to be seen and the Dalit community to some extent. What a Dalit community means, untouchables there are many words.
Statue of Dr Ambedakar >>
many ways and many languages in India which describe untouchability as pejorative term. Mark Majari again tried to change this in his own fight against untouchability and gave them the name Harijans which means children of God but as the community became politically conscious they rejected this term as patronising because as you said if we are the children of God then who are you? So they call themselves Dalits which literally means the oppressed and as the Dalits community has become somewhat more empowered than before what has happened is that the rage against them has also increased because there are people upper caste who do not want to see this change happen. Atrocities against Dalits are a very common feature in India. Perhaps you could argue that these atrocities have increased as the Dalits community becomes more vocal and fights for their rights. So to come to 1997 where this film began, in 1997 in a slum in the city of Bombay, somebody in the middle of the night put a garland of footwear on Dr Ambedakar's statue in the community where the dalits lived. When people came out in protest against this, they came out in the street; the police arrived within minutes and shot in, without any warning. They fired into the demonstrators and the colonies where people lived and killed ten people on the spot, one other person died a few days later from his bullet injuries. Four days after this event, a poet and singer whom I had worked with in the past, because I had made a film on the slums of Bombay and … sang the song that runs through that film, it’s called Bombay our City. Benas who lived near this colony visited this colony after the firing had happened and he got so depressed by what he saw that he committed suicide. He hung himself in his own hut. This is where the film begins, because I then wanted to understand why this happened. That journey took me 14 years; the film has been going on from 1997 till 2011. You will see it explores many different strands; one is that I had recorded a lot of Benas’s music on tape, although I only had one song of him actually singing. I then started recording the music of other musicians of the community. I looked at caste and past…. From the Dalits community, he had also become a… the film looks at tensions between caste and past because one of the things you’ll see as the film goes along Benas when he died even though he was a Marxist he reasserted his Dalip identity rather than his Marxist identity. He died with a blue scarf on his head rather than a red scarf as you would expect. And I also looked at court cases against the police, and the police put counter cases against the people that they had fired first because they always do that did the shooting in self-defence. So these two sets of court cases are one of the reasons why the film took so long to complete.
After the Film Q&A with the director
ByTashi khan
Q- Can you tell us about getting certification?
Dir-yes I have always had problems with all my films but surprisingly this film didn't have that problem, because maybe they were embarrassed as I have always won my case, surprisingly I got the censor certificate without any struggle, which was a pleasant surprise. They couldn't cut this and that as the Dalits voice is deniable.
Q. I guess what I was wondering if you have had any battle with the television to show it to viewers.
Dir- Aah! yes, this hasn't got the TV test certificate and that's my next battle tht stage is to show on the Television, we have private channels but I have always argued to show my films on the national TV. Without struggle otherwise I to go to the court, I have always won my cases and I have to show my fernment channel Doordarshan which is equivalent to BBC here.
My Last Question
Q. Also I wanted to find out how is it going to change people in India by showing the film in the west?
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